Al-Jazeera interviews former FIS leader on 1990s violence, internal differences

Doha Al-Jazeera Satellite Channel Television in Arabic at 1705 gmt on 28 June carries in its "Private Visit" feature the 49-minute part 1 of an interview with Rabah Kebir, former head of the Executive Bureau of Algeria's Islamic Salvation Front (FIS) abroad, inside and around his home in an unidentified village in Germany. The interview - conducted by Sami Kulayb - appears to be in winter as there is a fire burning inside Kebir's home and he wears an overcoat when outside it with Kulayb.

Introducing the programme, Kulayb says Kebir came to Germany after he was sentenced to death in Algeria. He says Kebir returned recently to Algeria in the hope of participating in political life, but then returned to live in Germany. Kulayb says Kebir decided to distance himself from "what remains of the banned FIS in Algeria, although he was its spokesman since he took refuge in Germany and made peace with President Abdelaziz Bouteflika's regime."

Asked if he is still head of the FIS's Executive Bureau abroad, Kebir says: "As far as I am concerned the role of the FIS as a political party is finished. I am not talking about it as history. But as an effective party, we still have supporters, we still have leaders, Algerians are still sympathetic with its line, but it does not exist as a political party." He says he's now a politician only, and has no capacity in the FIS. Kebir answers questions about his family and private life. He denies he's from a wealthy family, and confirms it is claimed the family is descended from Muhammad but the claim cannot be proven, adding that his tribe came from the Arabian Peninsula. Kebir says he studied physics at university. Asked about his fierce hostility to communists when at university, he says "perhaps it was because of a religious background."

Asked if he was influenced by Marx's and other books he read on communism, he says no. He says he knew the Algerian Ennahda Movement leader, Abdallah Jaballah, who espoused Muslim Brotherhood thought and agrees that he was influenced by that thought in his early life and he studied Sayyid Qutb's books, adding that he was not a member of the Brotherhood organizationally, but felt his thoughts are closer to the Brotherhood than others. Asked about a report that he split from Jaballah in 1989, Kebir says in the 1970s, it was all student activity, but in 1978, they established a secret organization called Al-Jama'ah al-Islamiyah (Islamic Group) which was led by Jaballah, and he was a member of its Consultative Council. He says he split from Jaballah not because of personal reasons - Kulayb suggests Jaballah was a person with whom it was difficult to deal - but because of "political and intellectual reasons", and because he disagreed with Jaballah's stand toward the FIS when it was formed. Asked who from the FIS tried to recruit him before he left Al-Jama'ah, Kebir says it was Abdelkader Hachani, who was later killed by a gunman in Algiers.

Asked why Hachani was assassinated, Kebir says he said at the time he was not convinced by the official story on Hachani's assassination, and said "there were hidden hands" and quarters who he believes were in power, but it is difficult to say who they were. Asked about Abdelmoumen Khalifa's (who is in custody in London) "well-known business deal" (not explained further) and his assertion that "big heads are probably involved", Kebir says it is suspicious how Khalifa became so wealthy and there had to be "collusion with influential quarters" in the case, and the president himself "was unable to remove the big heads."

As interviewer and interviewee walk outside Kebir's house, Kulayb says one would think from what Kebir and many FIS officials say the FIS was unconnected with all the violence that occurred, and asks if the FIS bears a big part of the responsibility for the violence, such as the assassination of President Boudiaf, Kebir says the FIS had nothing to do with Boudiaf's assassination, adding he said at the time that "those who assassinated him are those who brought him to power."

Regarding the violence, Kebir says everyone is responsible, although the extent of responsibility could differ from one person to another. Kebir confirms that his brother was a senior official in the Islamic Salvation Army which has been disbanded. Asked which are the Islamic groups that carried out killings and if they came from the FIS, Kebir says a part of them were from the FIS, a part came from among the people, and a part were "suspect". Asked to elaborate Kebir says he could not say exactly who, but "certainly there were some manoeuvres and manipulation. Even some people in the army said that."

Asked if the FIS leadership supported armed action, Kebir says no. Asked if armed action was proposed, Kebir says it was, but the prevailing view was to reject it. He says they "tried to correct and guide until a truce was reached". Told the Islamic street is now divided into several trends, and asked if Jaballah and Soltani at head of the Movement of Society for Peace represent "the reality of Algeria's Islamic movement," Kebir says they represent part of the Islamic movement. Asked if they took over FIS's popularity, Kebir says he doesn't think so, adding that both of them "welcome our return to the arena because it needs us."

Kulayb says because the arena needs him, as he says, Kebir returned recently to Algeria where he condemned every armed action against the authorities or others. Kulayb says as they were filming this episode some statements of Al-Qa'idah in the Land of the Islamic Maghreb (AQLIM) reached them on the internet. Asked for his view of Al-Qa'idah and Bin-Ladin, Kebir says Al-Qa'idah did not exist in the first place, although there was the (Salafi) Group for Call and Combat (GSPC), but after the FIS announced it agrees to national reconciliation the group lost its popularity. He says fighting the regimes - regardless of their mistakes - is "a fatal mistake." Asked about Bin-Ladin, Kebir says there are two versions of Bin Ladin: when he was fighting the Soviets and that was respected, but what is attributed to him now such as his support for the bombings in Algeria - if that is true - is "a fatal mistake and contrary to the Shar'iah."

Asked about secret contacts between the FIS and France under Presidents Mitterrand and Chirac, Kebir says the FIS had contacts with both and others at the time, adding: "We deal with everyone who has a connection with Algeria." Asked if French envoys to the FIS had visited him in Germany, Kebir says yes. Asked who, Kebir says he may not be politically free to do so. Kulayb mentions Jean Charles (Marquiani), who was then assistant to French interior minister Pasqua, Kebir says he met with him - and there is no problem in him mentioning that because (Marquiani) talked about the matter - and there was "a semi-attempt by the French to mediate," with the help of the Sudanese whose ambassador in Paris "arranged matters." Kebir says the attempt failed. He says he and (Marquiani) had a heated argument and when their voices rose, a Sudanese who was with them tried to calm then down, and he told him not to interfere, "We and the French know each other," and (Marquiani) seconded what he said. Asked why the mediation failed, Kebir speculates that "perhaps they expected the FIS to make unjustified concessions at the time."

Asked about other mediations, Kebir says other meetings "were within the framework of relations between the FIS and other states" that wanted to know their views. Asked if that was on an intelligence level or at a higher level, Kebir says regarding France the envoy - sent by Mitterrand - was the principal official in charge of France's security agencies. Kebir mentions other envoys from French presidents and ex-prime minister Balladur.

Asked if there were political contacts with other states, Kebir mentions America, Britain and Spain. Told that is contrary to what used to be said about the FIS being isolated, Kebir recalls that in 1995 when Pasqua deported "many brothers", he was asked if he has contacts with Kebir he said: "I don't contact those who support terrorism", adding that when a journalist later asked him about the matter Kebir told him about the mediation and meetings that took place, and the journalist was happy because he got a scoop, but the journalist later told him he was prevented in France from publishing what Kebir told him. Kebir says that was strange for France. Asked which television station was it, Kebir says LCI.

Asked which Arab state tried to mediate between them and the Algerian authorities, Kebir says there were contacts with the Saudis, and Libya tried to mediate but Algeria refused. Asked if he went to Libya, Kebir says no. Asked if he went to Saudi Arabia during the crisis and if he met with senior Saudi officials, Kebir says he went to Saudi Arabia but did not meet with senior officials during the pilgrimage season, although he corresponded with the king and the crown prince at the time - told that was Prince, now King, Abdallah, Kebir says yes, and both answered through the Saudi ambassador, adding the letters "were friendly and positive." He says the Arab states were expecting the FIS to assume power and "were preparing for a situation that may arise."

Asked about Saudi financial assistance for FIS, Kebir says it's not true. Asked if Libya helped financially, Kebir says no. After an exchange during which Kebir says he is saying the truth but cannot sometimes say the whole truth because he has to respect people's confidences, Kulayb says: "Therefore we understand that there was Libyan assistance but you don't want to mention it," Kebir says: "That's what you say. "Kulayb says he found among Kebir's papers many statements issued by the FIS Executive Bureau abroad signed by Kebir calling for reconciliation and dialogue. Kebir reads one of them.

Asked about his position regarding women, Kebir says: "I dream of a modern democratic state that follows Islamic principles. When I say 'Islamic principles' many people think it means putting women in the corner and that's not true." He says Muhammad did not marginalize women for at his time women used to nurse the wounded, fight, and had a strong presence. Asked - and now seen with apparently his wife and daughters (all of whom are veiled) - if the veil (hijab) is essential, Kebir says it's a canon law duty but the matter is up to each girl herself. Asked if he acquiesces if his daughter does not wear the veil, Kebir says "if she refuses he will not force her to, for it is a matter of conviction." Told he intends to establish a party and asked if he accepts to have a woman to lead it one day, Kebir says: "It is not to be ruled out. However, to be realistic that is not expected in Algeria's present circumstances." He says theoretically he has no objection. Asked if he goes to the cinema in Germany, Kebir says not often but sometimes, adding there is beautiful art and ugly art.

In his introduction to Part II, Kulayb says when he arrived to this quite part of Germany, he wondered if it was nature which changed Rabah Kebir's "thought, principles, and perhaps approach" or if he has concluded a "secret deal" with President Bouteflika's regime.

A clip is then shown in which Kebir says: "As long as the opportunity has not been given to serious and real political activity, Algeria remains in a crisis," adding that elections are "merely a decor, a decor that is unconvincing to Algerians because the boycott of elections grows every time." Kulayb says when he arrived at Kebir's home to film Part II of the interview, he was preparing to go to a nearby mosque for Friday prayers. Kulayb then refers to the violence that erupted in Algeria in the early 1990s when the FIS was dissolved by the authorities as they decided to stop the second round of parliamentary elections after FIS's victory.

Asked about those elections, Kebir says he was expecting the FIS to win 75 per cent of the vote. He says they saw "the possibility that the authorities may not like the situation, but the possibility that it will carry out a coup in that crude manner did not exist." Kebir says his personal feeling was that although they won the elections he did not expect that they "will now rule Algeria." He says usually the party that wins expects to form a government but he didn't feel that was going to happen.

Asked if contacts with some officers in the military establishment had begun, Kebir says the only contact at the time was between Abdelkader Hachani and the defense minister, Khaled Nezzar, on the telephone prior to the elections, in Kebir's presence. Kebir says "Nezzar's reaction was bad," adding Hachani said the elections should be free and Nezzar said: "You should be happy we did not ban you."

Told that at the time some FIS leaders were peaceable, some were diplomatic, others were hot-blooded - those who heard the FIS number two, Ali Belhaj, for instance expected problems, for he was escalating the situation - and asked if they discussed such matters within the FIS and if they called for "toning down the tone so that those in power, the military establishment, the West, and a section of the Algerian people will not be afraid," Kebir says: "Constantly and emphatically." He says Belhaj was talking as a preacher, not as a politician. Told he was talking in the FIS's name, Kebir says: "Yes, that's the problem." Kebir says Belhaj once told him on the telephone: "I am not a man of politics, I am a man of religion. If I am convinced of a matter juristically I have to say it in this manner." He says some speakers who were considered to be followers of Belhaj delivered "fiery" Friday prayers, and said "unreasonable" things about the authorities, and the person concerned would be summoned and "we would talk to him," and he did not speak in that manner the following Friday perhaps, but the Friday after that he reverted to the same discourse. Kebir acknowledges there was "duality."

Kebir says after they won the first round of elections they asked Hachani to hold a press conference to calm matters down. He says Hachani spoke well and the media reported what he said well, but "the shaykhs in prison - [the FIS number one] Abbas Madani, and Belhaj and those who were with them -- rebuked us, and they said: 'Do you think you are in office and you can make concessions?' There were no concessions or anything of the sort. It was just to calm things down." He adds it is natural that some people take a hard-line and others don't, but the aim is ultimately the same. Asked if he is still being rebuked by some shaykhs to this day, Kebir says one cannot please everyone.

Told that his father was a member of the liberation army and fought for independence, and asked if he viewed the military establishment as an enemy of FIS, Kebir says: "Not at all," adding that his father remained in the army until 1971. He says he completed his military service in the Algerian army. Asked if Nezzar was among those who suppressed the Islamists politically and militarily, Kebir says "Nezzar undoubtedly played a very bad role. As defence minister he could have held a dialogue, asked the party which won - and which he views as frightening - to make concessions, to give and take but he took a step that sent Algeria to the unknown. He bears primary responsibility for the events."

Told that if he (Kulayb) was in his place and heard Belhaj's speeches he too would have been afraid, Kebir says Nezzar was in power and as a responsible official he should have discussed matters with FIS leaders. Asked if he met with Nezzar, Kebir says no, but he had "amicable" meetings with the interior minister." Kebir says he was imprisoned in Algeria but the court freed him and he went home, and on the following day a big army force - about 15 vehicles - came to his house and his son Hicham was frightened and hid among the trees. Kulayb talks to Hicham about the incident.

Asked, as they walk outside his house, how he reconciles his German nationality with his Algerian nationality and what has Germany taught him, Kebir says he feels he is now "politically more mature." He relates an incident in which he went to court in a case between him and the German Interior Ministry, and says the woman judge sharply rebuked and censured the Interior Ministry and ruled in his favour. Asked if he became more in favour of democracy after his stay in Germany, Kebir says: "Certainly. I learned that democracy ultimately is a mechanism, with everyone having his own intellectual background." Asked if he accepts to be secular, Kebir says: "In the West secularism is better than anything else because it allows you to perform your religious duties very freely and to practice your religion freely, and you enjoy all rights."

Asked if he agrees to be described as "secular" Kebir says: "As a person you cannot change your skin." Told that he holds the passport of a secular state, Kebir says: "I am committed to German democracy since I am a citizen now. However, as a person it is difficult to say I am secular." Asked what he regrets in his work in Algeria after he became familiar with the West, democracy, and a calmer life, Kebir says: "I regret that we did not work to have our country take steps toward progress like these states." He says when he saw the West's development he said to himself, "how many senior (Algerian) officials visited these countries before me, didn't they think why we don't do the same, why not try at least?"

Asked if Ismail Amraoui sent someone to assassinate him, Kebir says the source of the story was a former intelligence officer, Col Samraoui, who claimed - on Al-Jazeera - that he came to Germany for that purpose. Kebir says announcing this claim at that time when there was a truce and a dialogue was an attempt to obstruct the process. Asked if there were attempts to assassinate him in Germany, Kebir says several times he felt there was someone following him in a car wherever he was going, and on one occasion he sped and stopped at a police station, and the car that was tailing him went away. Kebir says after that the police said he should have personal protection because there is definite information he could be assassinated. Asked how long did he have protection Kebir says for a whole year he did not go anywhere without a car ahead of him and another car behind him, and if he walked he had armed guards with him.

Asked about former prime minister Sidi Ahmed Ghozali's role, Kebir says he was "a deceiver." Asked about former president Chadli Bendjedid, he says he hasn't met him but he respects him and "he opened the door to political democracy." Told it's said Bendjedid "concluded a deal with the FIS," Kebir says that's untrue. Asked about former premier Mouloud Hamrouche, Kebir says he respects him, adding he was neither sympathetic with them nor an adversary.

After a break, Kulayb says Kebir escaped from house arrest in Algeria whereas many FIS leaders were thrown in prison, adding: "Did he escape or was his escape arranged? The question remained ambiguous." Kebir says he used a passport which was not his, declining to mention the name on it because its owner is still alive. On that day he reported as usual at the police station, and because of his good conduct he used to be allowed to roam about in the car with his driver, and at a distance of 10 km from the town he changed the car, in collusion with the driver. Kebir says he thought if he's stopped he'll say he's sick and going to hospital in Constantine, and he shaved his beard and donned Western clothes. Then they drove all night, and were stopped at 12 checkpoints where the car was searched. He says someone at the border helped him, with the assistance of a policeman who did not know his identity, his passport was stamped, and he entered Morocco. Kebir says he stayed one night in Morocco and then left for Germany. Kebir denies that the State or some officers helped him to escape, adding that his family escaped three months later in the same way. He says the authorities mostly believed he escaped by sea.

Kulayb says during the years of violence in Algeria Kebir criticized the government and called for putting those responsible for repressing the Islamists on trial, but Kebir soon began to express "openness toward the Algerian authorities, after consulting or without consulting and even in disagreement with Madani and Belhaj." Kulayb says Kebir strongly supported Bouteflika's reconciliation plan and congratulated him on winning the elections.

Kulayb says Bouteflika had said on Al-Manar Television he doesn't know Kebir and doesn't know his dossier. Kebir says he hasn't met with Bouteflika, and although he expected to meet him when in Algeria he didn't ask for a meeting. Referring to what Bouteflika said, Kebir says Bouteflika was in an embarrassing position during the election campaign, for he said earlier on Algerian television that Kebir "is well-known, has contributed to making peace, and is a peace advocate." Asked if there was correspondence between them, Kebir says: "We sent letters," which were in support of the truce and saying "you can rely on us in the reconciliation dossier." Asked if Bouteflika replied with a written letter, Kebir says no but his response "was delivered in other ways."

Asked if it was (now former) Prime Minister Abdelaziz Belkhadem who "engineered his return" to Algeria from Germany, Kebir says Belkhadem was part of it, but he didn't "engineer" it. Kebir says he had announced he wants to return, and the Algerian consulate initially said they have no orders to give him a passport, but later gave him his passport and asked him to inform them of the date of his travel. A clip of a stamp on his passport shows he entered Algeria on 17 September 2006.

Asked if he asked Madani and Belhaj about his return before he returned, Kebir says he didn't, but after "a two-hour amicable meeting" with Madani - after a television discussion they attended together - it was clear there was a distance between their "political inclinations." He says he had informed Belhaj who advised him not to return. Asked when he returned and met with Belhaj did he feel he had changed, Kebir says: No.

Asked if Belhaj hardened his line, Kebir says no, he remained the same. Asked if Belhaj continued in his militant discourse, will he oppose him, Kebir says: Certainly. Kebir says he told Belhaj in an amicable meeting that "my line now is to build peace, not for disagreement or calling to account for the past." Kebir says that within himself Belhaj is prepared to forget the past "but since there is no opportunity it is difficult to do so. I have no problem now in disagreeing with any quarter - even if I love and respect it - if what it says is not in the Algerian's people interest." Asked what they disagreed upon, Kebir says that he said he is for the reconciliation plan, and he trusted the regime.

Asked if Belhaj reproached him for supporting Bouteflika, Kebir says: No, not at all. Kebir says earlier they had a heated discussion on the phone at the end of which Belhaj said: "We respect your stand. God willing, if your stand turns out to be more correct we are prepared to follow your stand." Told now that Kebir has returned to Germany, Belhaj could feel he was right as the authorities didn't give Kebir anything, Kebir says: "Let him do so. I did not go to Algeria expecting or hoping the authorities will give me something," adding that what he wants is that "equal opportunity be given to the Algerian people. I am one of the Algerian people. If the opportunity is given it will be open for me, for him, and for other Algerians to compete for the interest of our country. My concern is to serve the Algerian people in a similar way to what I have seen in Western societies."

Told that he has returned to Germany, Kebir says: "As long as there is still no climate for political openness - and that is what I understood from those with whom I met, that the present circumstances do not allow it - then my staying in Algeria will only cost them the expenses of providing me with protection, and it is better to go to Germany." Asked how an experienced man like him returns to Algeria without paving the way for staying, Kebir says his return to Algeria was not in order to stay, and before he left he said "this is a reconnaissance visit." Asked if the idea of the party (which apparently he wants to establish) will also be Islamic, Kebir says: "The party will have an Islamic background, certainly, because that is our background. We cannot shift from it. However, it is a democratic and modernist party that looks to the future," adding that the party "cannot be in conflict with the principles of Islamic Shari'ah."

Asked about the principles of the party, Kebir says he was asked what are the things in the FIS he relinquished and he replied that he dropped "the principle of [violent] struggle [al-mughalabah]", and some principles could lead to a clash. Kulayb says Kebir now espouses "the principle of moderation, for extremism by both the Islamists and the authorities brought only ruin to Algeria."

Kebir says: "Undoubtedly Bouteflika has done well for Algeria and Algerians in his policy of reconciliation. He has taken Algeria along big and giant steps toward reconciliation," adding: "I hope the president will now support this move toward reconciliation with more serious steps, in order to give Algerians the opportunity to progress toward real development within the framework of a genuine democracy."

Kulayb concludes: "The ping-pong game between Rabah Kebir and the authorities which allowed him to return is continuing. However, it appears the authorities will not yet allow him to establish a party. The authorities consider themselves to have won the ping-pong game and the decision is theirs. As he waits for a change in the equation, Kebir needs to be very patient because peace deals are often more difficult than the fire of war."

Source: Al-Jazeera TV, Doha, in Arabic 1705 gmt 5 Jul 08