Arab clerics discuss Madrid interfaith conference, urge antiterror measures

[Discussion moderated by Mahmud al-Warwari on the Madrid Interfaith Dialogue Conference held in Madrid 16-18 July under the auspices of Saudi King Abdallah Bin-Abd-al-Aziz - live]

Dubai Al-Arabiya Television in Arabic, independent television station financed by Arab businessmen, at 2012 gmt on 18 July broadcasts live a 42-minute "special discussion" on interfaith dialogue. The discussion focuses on the Interfaith Dialogue Conference held in Madrid 16-18 July. Mahmud al-Warwari, who moderates the discussion from Dubai, hosts via satellite Shaykh Mahmud Ashur, former deputy rector of Al-Azhar University and member of the Egyptian Islamic Research Council, from Cairo; Father Nabil Haddad, head of the Melkite Church and director of Religious Coexistence Centre in Jordan, from Madrid; and Iyad Jamal-al-Din, member of the Iraqi Council of Representatives, from Baghdad.

Opening the discussion, Al-Warwari says: "The issue of terrorism and ways to combat it has dominated the International Interfaith Dialogue Conference, because over these past years the terrorism issue has been the main element in straining relations between religions and peoples and the basic factor in spreading misunderstanding and misconceptions on the religious, cultural, and international levels."

He says: "The conference, which concluded its deliberations in Madrid today, issued recommendations under the name of the Madrid Declaration aimed at opening the way for a new international era of peaceful coexistence, entitled dialogue and coexistence. The conference has been significant in the sense that it devised an international mechanism to realize its aims of dialogue, understanding, coexistence, and the renunciation of violence."

Al-Marwari begins by asking Shaykh Ashur to explain the exact meaning of terrorism. Ashur says that "terrorism is not confined to the Islamic religion but is found in all faiths because terrorism has no religion or country." He says there is terrorism in thought, in culture, and in society. He adds: "Terrorism has many forms and colours but the important thing is that thoughts cannot be countered except by other thoughts. A thought is needed to fight extremist and terrorist thoughts that constitute a transgression on people's lives. Terrorism means aggression against peaceful people. It means infringement on the rights of peaceful citizens and their properties and the usurpation of their rights. All this is terrorism. Therefore, when we stand against all of these and fight them we will realize security, peace, and tranquillity in the society."

If all the conferees agree to the recommendations of this conference and if they have the sincere desire to implement all of this in their societies, "no doubt peace, security, and prosperity will prevail."

A 2-minute report is then read on the most important recommendations of the Madrid Interfaith Conference and the mechanisms to implement these recommendations.

Turning to Father Haddad, Al-Warwari asks him to comment on the Madrid Declaration. Haddad says that this Declaration has been issued here in Madrid, "which suffered from terrorist attacks in which 200 people died, many of whom were Arabs and Muslims," adding: "I learned today that a girl from Jordan lost her two legs in the attack." He adds: "We must say that all of us have a duty to do good and confront acts of terrorism and violence, from which we suffered and are continuing to suffer. Terrorism is not represented only by what we are witnessing in terms of violence and bloodshed. There are many forms of terrorism in certain societies that prevent religious freedom, human dignity, and the freedom of worship."

Haddad adds: "I have presented a paper to the conference in which I said that not only individuals but states as well must spread the culture of dialogue in order to fight terrorism," noting that there are means that all states and societies must use.

Al-Warwari then asks Jamal al-Din if ulema and clergymen should not define the meaning of terrorism "without harming" or "conceding" basic principles, as some might expect. Jamal-al-Din first voices "reservations" and criticizes the conference because "nobody was invited to this conference from Iraq, especially from Holy al-Najaf," which is the seat of the "highest Shi'i authority in the world." Al-Warwari tells Jamal-al-Din that Shaykh Taskhiri was present, but Jamal-al-Din replies: "This man represents the Islamic Republic of Iran, but I am speaking about the highest Shi'i authority in the world represented by the holy city of A-Najaf. Nobody was invited."

Jamal-al-Din says: "The clamour about terrorism came to us from the West. They did not specify a clear meaning of this term. Therefore, it has become a flexible term that can include legitimate resistance movements in countries that are exposed to terrorism. Such resistance cannot be described as terrorism. Many states in the West use double standards, describing some movements as terrorists and some others as not terrorist." He says that this has become a tool of pressure on states, governments, peoples, and political organizations. This needs international political treatment, especially by the Middle East countries and the Western nations, so that a specific meaning can be given and the same criteria followed in defining terrorism.

Asked to comment on Jamal-al-Din's remarks, Ashur says that Jihad includes resistance against those who usurp land, honour, or property. He says: "If I am resisting aggression; if I resist injustice, and a usurper of my land, my property, or my honour, then I am a mujahid. But if peaceful people come under attack without any reason or justice, then this is terrorism which the entire world must resist, no matter where it comes from or to which religion its perpetrators belongs."

Asked about his proposal to establish a "world council for dialogue among religions, cultures, and civilizations under UN auspices," and if this is a feasible establishment "within the United Nations which is also being criticized by some," Father Haddad replies that one must be "optimistic." He praises the initiative by "the custodian of the two holy mosques" to bring together the followers of all religions, noting that it is a "very positive initiative." He adds: "We should not stop at certain points and say there is a weakness here or a weakness there." He says all followers of "monotheistic" religions must work to establish peace and good relations. He adds: "We must start with ourselves. We should not be satisfied with the work of the United Nations and wait for it to come and organize our work for us. The whole world needs such good and noble initiatives."

He says in the society from which he comes, Jordan, "to which I am proud to belong, we have religious coexistence." He adds: "Do we have to keep wasting time in finding a mechanism, other than the United Nations, to unify these efforts?"

Al-Warwari then presents a 2-minute video report by correspondent Mustafa Zaru in London on efforts in Britain to bring religions closer together and which considered the Saudi initiative in Madrid a "remarkable achievement."

Asked if the proposed world council will succeed, Jamal-al-Din says that it is not the Bible or the Koran that speak on behalf of the people, noting that "in most countries, clergymen belong to states, to governments," and they speak on people's behalf. He adds: "We need the political will to activate the good aspects of religion, making religion more human, more tolerant. One can read various religions in various ways. Some readings highlight the violent side of religion and some other readings highlight the aspects of tolerance and human values." He says the clergymen cannot do that, because the will of the clergyman is linked with that of the politicians and statesmen. Therefore, the Arab and Islamic states, which are more concerned with this and which are burned by the fire of terrorism, must act.

"Terrorism has not grown naturally like a sapling in the ground. Intelligence services and states are sponsoring these terrorist movements, and this rhetoric of terrorism and violence." Therefore, dialogue must be held by states and governments in order to activate the human aspects of religion. This means that clergymen and religious organizations, who are connected with these governments, must be instructed to change this rhetoric from a violent rhetoric into a humanitarian one." He says: "Thus, we can either activate the bright side of religion or the dark side of religion that depends on killing, and the sword, as portrayed by Abu-Mus'ab al-Zarqawi and his ilk."

Asked his opinion about this proposed council, Shaykh Ashur says that so many recommendations and measures have been issued after such conferences but they were never implemented. He says : "We must have good intentions first. The conferees must believe in what happens at these conference. All the recommendations that are mentioned before the effective tools, were taught by Islam 14 centuries ago but they have not been activated in many ways. Islam spoke about equality, cultural diversity, respect for religions, and dialogue." He argues that many people do not implement, believe in, or activate these things.

Ashur agrees with Jamal-al-Din that clergymen are ineffective in their societies because they are under the rule of the governments, adding that "leaders the world over must be convinced of this and must implement and activate it."

Turning to Father Haddad, Al-Warwari asks if it is possible to have a rhetoric that counters terrorism, given the "extremists within Christianity, although there are extremists in all religions." He replies: "We must correct the image of religion after this distortion, which is caused by those who wear the mask of religion in order to realize personal, political, or economic benefits." He says: "Fighting these extremists and fanatics must be done through the willpower of the religious leaders in the same religion. We must not stand with folded arms when we see religion, any religion, taken hostage by a few who want to divert this religion and distort noble values. Therefore, when we see such an initiative, we must encourage it became it expresses sincere intentions. That is what my colleague from Cairo is demanding." He says that what happened at the conference would not have taken place "without the political will, the sincere intentions, and the urgent desire of all the participants to reach results that we might be able to realize."

He says when political leaders and wise religious leaders are united, "they deserve our support." He praises the "Amman message" on religion which is "a paragon to be emulated in how each group can present its religion in a scientific, wise, and sincere way."

Al-Warwari asks Jamal-al-Din if it is possible to adopt a code of honour among the media to respect religions, and if this is applicable under these differences on the principle of liberalism, freedom, and such things. Jamal-al-Din replies: "It will be possible if there is a political will but it is difficult to implement this in practice. Religions - all religions - need a corrective revolution. Here we have a problem. As Shi'is, we think that we are right and others are wrong. The Sunnis also think the same, and this applies to the Jews, the Christians, the Buddhist, and all other religions. Each thinks that he is right and that others are wrong."

Jamal-al-Din praises the Arab philosopher Muhyi-al-Din Ibn-Arabi and his followers "who have a religion that covers the entire mankind and who think that all religions are means to reach God but these means are different."

He says: "Indeed the media are effective in this age. There are media that provoke others, whoever they might be, and there are other media that bring people together and purify their souls and minds, making religion a factor that helps strengthen humanitarian bonds and not incite hatred and create fear of others. Regrettably in the modern age, the media have become provocative. Some provoke Muslims, some provoke Shi'is, and some provoke Sunnis, and regrettably we really need a code of honour."

Commenting on this point, Ashur says that nobody can control the media now and that the entire world is influenced by the media. He says: "We need to hold dialogue within the same religion - by people of the same religion - in order to agree, cooperate, and love each other. The Shi'is and Sunnis need dialogue to reach a common ground. The Christian groups also need dialogue because there are differences among them, so also do the Jewish groups." Ashur argues that after this "we might move on towards a general dialogue among all faiths, and thus, we will be able to bring people together and control the movement of religion, wipe out terrorism and all things that twist the image of religion in all human societies."

Asked if the code of honour will prevent the "repetition of incidents of insults to religions," Father Haddad says: "The Christians stood by Muslims when the insulting cartoons appeared in Denmark, and our records in Jordan prove that we stood and said that we rejected all such insults." He says: "We do not have to wait for a code of honour to materialize. What we need is a message that the media should bear. The media now have no message. Their message, as some of the brothers said, is a provocative message. As the media become globalized, the bad news become globalized. In minutes such news spread in the whole world and incite people. This message is what we want the media to preach and we expect of them to preach it."

Haddad adds: "We must know that education is extremely important. We must affirm that dialogue begins with education."

Asked about the educational curricula and the necessary changes in schools, Jamal-al-Din says: "We in the Arab and Islamic worlds indeed require a revolution in religions school curricula. Probably curricula elsewhere need to be changed, although I have not seen the curricula in Europe and the United States. However, our problem in the Arab and Islamic world is that we should mention the common human values that are preached by all religions. Islam has many things in common with Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, and others. We must encourage opening to others. We are living in the age of the Internet. However, our religious rhetoric continues to be the pre-Internet rhetoric."

Jamal-al-Din says: "We must reaffirm in our curricula common human ideals so that our human beings might not fear the others. Educational curricula must reaffirm self-confidence and must accept people as they are and the others as they are."

In conclusion, Al-Warwari asks Ashur if it is possible to change curricula and how we can avoid the wrath of some if we do that, he replies: "No doubt the educational curricula, both in Egypt and elsewhere, need purification and a new look. This look reaffirms accepting the other, meeting with him, and establishing connections with him, so that we might convince the people that we are all the children of Adam and Eve, because humanity is of the same origin, and that mankind had only one father and one mother."

Ashur says: "You mentioned the insults to the Prophet. But the leader of a major religious community attacked Islam, the prophet of Islam, and the Islamic religion. He is Pope Benedict. He attacked Islam and the prophet of Islam in a lecture he gave in Germany. There must be a code of honour by which all must abide."

Source: Al-Arabiya TV, Dubai, in Arabic 2012 gmt 18 Jul 08